Foster Parent Well
Foster Parent Well is the go-to podcast for foster and adoptive parents who are navigating the complexities of parenting children with trauma while trying to stay sane in the process. Hosted by Nicole T Barlow, a foster and adoptive mom of six, parent trainer, and wellness coach, this podcast is where faith, resilience, and practical strategies come together.
If you're feeling burnt out, overwhelmed, or just plain exhausted from the daily realities of foster care and adoption—you're not alone. Here, we have real conversations about the hard stuff: attachment struggles, secondary trauma, parenting beyond behaviors, and the deep emotional weight of loving kids from hard places. But we also talk about you—your health, your nervous system, your faith, and the small, sustainable ways you can care for yourself so you can keep showing up for your kids.
Expect practical tips, faith-based encouragement, expert insights, and zero sugarcoating—just real, honest talk about what it takes to foster well, adopt well, and most importantly, stay well in the process.
Because parenting kids with trauma is a marathon, not a sprint—and you were never meant to run it alone.
🎧 Subscribe now and let’s do this together!
Foster Parent Well
When We Aren't Enough- Navigating Out of Home Care with Anna Bernacki
We explore the complexities of foster care and adoption and the emotional toll trauma takes on families, emphasizing the importance of candid conversations about these challenges. Anna Bernacki shares her personal journey through adoption and how faith has guided her family.
• The importance of discussing difficult topics within foster care
• Differences between crisis hospitalization and residential treatment
• Navigating shame and guilt in parenting from hard places
• The role of faith in coping with challenges
• How to support other family members when one child is absent
• Encouragement for parents feeling overwhelmed or isolated
If you know somebody that is facing similar challenges, would you send them this episode?
I'd love to hear from you! Send me a text!
Connect with me on Instagram: @Fosterparentwell
@nicoletbarlow https://www.instagram.com/nicoletbarlow/
Website: https://nicoletbarlow.com/
Welcome to the Foster Parent Well podcast, where we have real candid, faith-filled conversations about all things foster care, adoption and trauma. I'm your host, nicole T Barlow. I'm a certified parent trainer, a certified health coach and an adoptive parent myself. This is a space where you can find support so that you can care for your kids with a steadfast faith, endurance and joy. I want you to foster parent well. My name is Nicole T Barlow and I am your host.
Speaker 1:Well, today, you guys, we have a little bit of a longer podcast for you and I got to be honest, I'm a little nervous about this one. I open up in this podcast telling a part of our foster care and adoption story that we have not really told publicly yet. I mean, our community, the people that are in our lives in real life, know this part of our story, but I have not shared this on the podcast before. But I do think some of these harder conversations, digging into some of these harder topics, are so important. But I would ask you this I would ask that you give us grace. We are trying to navigate these really difficult and hard conversations with grace, but there may be times where we say something or where something comes out in a way that is received differently than we mean it. That is received differently than we mean it, and so I want to preface this podcast by just saying you know, I think as adoptive parents, we love our kids. We would lay down our lives, honor our kids and their stories. But also, if we are not saying the hard things, if we're not talking about the real challenges of foster care, of adoption, of trauma and the effects of trauma, then we're doing a disservice to everybody. We're alienating foster parents, adoptive parents that are going through some of these bigger challenges, because, you guys, this is stuff that nobody is really talking about.
Speaker 1:So my guest today is Anna Bernacki. She's a wife and a mom to four children who were adopted through foster care, and as an adoptee herself, anna's life has been shaped by the profound themes of identity, belonging and unconditional love. She brings a deeply personal perspective to her work as an educator for foster and adoptive families, especially those navigating the complexities of special needs parenting. As a mother of two children who have required placement in residential treatment facilities, anna knows the heartbreak and perseverance it takes to love from a distance. She has walked the difficult path of advocating for her children's safety and healing, while striving to maintain connection and foster restoration within her family. In the midst of these challenges, anna has leaned on her faith, finding strength in God's promises and hope in His ability to bring beauty from brokenness. And that's what we're going to be talking to Anna about.
Speaker 1:Today is when you have kids that need to live outside of the home, that need need to live outside of the home, that need to be placed outside of the home, whether for a short season or for a longer season. How do we navigate those challenges? So let's jump right in. Well, welcome Anna to the show. I'm so excited to have you here today and I've really been looking forward to this conversation because I think that what we're going to discuss today can really be impactful for so many people. So, as we get started, tell me a little bit about your story and how you got into foster care in the adoption world.
Speaker 2:So I actually am adopted myself, so adoption has was more normal than anything else to me. Um, I all my siblings are adopted as well. None of us are biologically related, so having a family that was not biologically related to each other was my normal. Um, something I always searched for, always wanted, was that biological connection. It defines a lot of my childhood. Honestly, I really just would lay in bed and dream about it. I wanted that so badly and so, as after getting married and thinking about family, I wanted biological children more than anything else in the world. And then God said nope, that's not my plan for your life.
Speaker 2:So we ended up kind of exploring different adoption avenues and really landed back with there are children who need homes. Right now, we have extra bedrooms in our home, let's fill them. Bedrooms in our home let's fill them. And we really wanted to do sibling groups. So that's what we did. We started fostering and we ended up adopting our first two placements after 18 months. So it was super fast case. We did not expect that at all. We thought we'd foster and have kind of a revolving door for a while, but that did not happen at all. And then we got two younger children and we have now. That was a much longer case, but we have now adopted them as well. So we have four adopted children through the foster care system.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, that's, that's awesome. Well, what was your view growing up, you know, being adopted Like what was your view of adoption? I know you said you kind of always dreamed of your biological that side of your family, but did you have a good experience being adopted? Did you have a negative experience? I know everybody's experiences vary so much.
Speaker 2:Somebody's experiences vary so much. Yeah, I think I never knew any other adoptees when I was younger. So I, you know, as a child, you believe the narrative that you're given right, it's beautiful, god created you to be in our family. Um, you were born for us, you know kind of that narrative and it never felt quite right. But also I didn't know anything else. I had nothing else to compare it to, so I had a lot of longing. It was a completely closed adoption, like I wasn't able to even know my biological parents' names until after I was 18.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And even then it was really hard to find. So I mean now with the internet it's a lot easier and that was pretty common.
Speaker 1:That was pretty common back then that things were done that way, right it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was very common. But I think it added an element that a lot of people today may not understand, because adoptions are typically more open, or at least you know who the parents are. There's more information given now. So that was definitely a struggle.
Speaker 2:Growing up, there was that internal struggle of like I should feel fine here. I was told I had no trauma because I was straight Well, I wasn't straight from the hospital. I was taken straight from the hospital and then I was in foster care for a very short time before placed in my adoptive family. So I don't know, I just never thought of myself as having trauma. I've lived this beautiful life and I really did. I was very privileged.
Speaker 2:I had a wonderful childhood growing up and then as an adult and going through the adoption process with my own kids and watching them grieve because they knew their parents and watching them grieve, I was like, oh, this is what I missed out on. This is those same feelings I had. I just didn't have a connect, a parent, to connect that to. So it was kind of this mystery feeling of why am I grieving people I don't even know? I don't even know their name, and so then I was able to kind of connect the dots and realize, and then I started grieving all over. I didn't really grieve my adoption and process all of that until I was an adult and walking my own kids through it.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's amazing how, how watching their experience kind of gives context to what you were feeling and I'm sure you were able to be much more empathetic to them in their grief, since you I mean you were processing in real time your own stuff, exactly. Yeah, well, how has trauma impacted your kids and your family now, like as an adult, and I mean you've you talked about how that has kind of stirred things up in you, but what have you seen as the impacts of of trauma on your family?
Speaker 2:I mean the impacts of trauma on our family are tremendous.
Speaker 1:I know like what area doesn't it touch right Right, right. Yeah, it is tremendous.
Speaker 2:I know like what area, doesn't it touch Right Right? Yeah, it is tremendous, and I think you know there's a broad spectrum. Um, each one of our children has their own struggles and I don't think I mean, we have many diagnoses in between all the kids. It's not. We certainly do not have a typical family. I don't even know what that looks like, I have no context for what that is, yeah, but each one has really struggled in their own way. So our two oldest kids were adopted at well, they came to us at six and 10 and then were adopted at eight and 11. I think, just the way their birthdays fall, so it was eight and 11,. I think just the way their birthdays fall, so it was eight and 11. Um, and because they were older and experienced so much more trauma in the home, like their story is still unfolding, we still find new things out Um, and it was truly a horrific. I mean, you look at a six-year-old. I have another six-year-old now and I look at her and I'm like the stuff that that child went through before coming to our home is so unreal and unbelievable. It's a world that so many people cannot even comprehend, even comprehend, and so I think kind of seeing their struggles in a different way. Now. Our younger two had a lot of prenatal trauma, so that comes out in a different way. Yes, we got them straight from the hospital. That does not spare them from trauma, it does not. So it's been very, very different. Our older kids have definitely struggled with more mental illness because of how the trauma has affected their brain. It's not the same brain as a healthy, typical child, so that has been really hard.
Speaker 2:Our oldest daughter, when she was, I want to say I think she was 14. She had some bullying at school that we did not know about. She's very quiet and doesn't really share a lot. So when we finally found out what was happening, she was already really really struggling with wanting to still be alive and be with us. She had no self-worth, did not think that she had any reason to still be here. So we ended up in the hospital pretty rapidly two times in a row and it was recommended to us that she go to a residential treatment facility. So she went to a 90 day program in and out Absolutely incredible. She's thriving ever since, really found herself worth, not to say she doesn't have her moments. She doesn't ever struggle, she certainly does, but she is doing so incredible. She did the work. It's been amazing. So that was just kind of our happily ever after story with that.
Speaker 2:And then we had our second daughter, who we knew when she walked in that door at six years old. That child was something else. She was. We were not naive to what we were getting ourselves into and many people said you're really going to adopt her? Yeah, we are, because we were her fifth home in six months. Wow, and it just I mean I'll let you put the puzzle pieces together on that one as to why.
Speaker 2:So it was very challenging, but at the time we didn't have other children in the home. We didn't have we had the capacity to handle it and as a six-year-old it's much more manageable because they're little and you can handle it. So after she was adopted, there seemed to be this huge lull in all of the behaviors. It really gave her. It seemed to give her the security she needed. She knew she wasn't going anywhere, she was with us forever. This was her home. It really gave her that security for a while Honestly a couple of years and then everything exploded again. I think she was 12. Everything exploded again and it's been a nonstop cycle since then, it's been very, very difficult.
Speaker 1:Anna, do you think that? And I ask this question because this is part of what we have seen both in our own home and in other people that are facing similar journeys? We also have a child that lives in residential and has gone through the hospital cycles, and one of the things that I noticed is there is a huge uptake at puberty.
Speaker 2:Yes, when puberty hits it's like the trauma accelerates times 30. Yes, and it just becomes really hard for our kids 100%.
Speaker 1:Yes, I would love to do research on that. I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but it's definitely is it has to be a thing it is. Well, I mean, I I'm currently watching some other families that have had kids that have been adopted and in their homes for years, and now that they're entering puberty it's a whole different shift. So we may have some listeners that don't understand the world of hospitalizations and residential and all of that kind of stuff. So will you explain two different things to me the difference between a crisis hospitalization, stabilization kind of thing and residential. What does that mean? What are the differences and what types of behaviors lead kids to like? What would lead you to say, hey, I think this child needs a little more care?
Speaker 2:Sure. So, starting with hospitalization, it definitely would be those, like you said, crisis in the home where it's usually more of an isolated incident, where you're having, whether it's suicidal ideation, whether it's a plan, whether it's self-harming, basically, or thoughts of injuring or hurting other people in the home. It's usually those things where in this moment, right now, I cannot, I can no longer keep this child safe. So then you have to call Um sometimes. Now with my oldest daughter, she came to us and we figured it out and I was able to take her into the hospital and went through the evaluation process with her. With my younger one, it was more of that crisis. We had to call 911 and had to have help come into the home. So it really kind of the process is very different between those two. Even Like that. Those are two even different, whole different worlds.
Speaker 2:So once you end up in that ER, all bets are off. You are out of control, things just happen and then they usually, if it's, they'll do an evaluation on them If they determine that they need to be stabilized, maybe, maybe they haven't been taking their medication, they need to get back on it, adjust medication, are not on medication at all, but just really need some intensive therapies, then they will go ahead and hospitalize. Usually that's the max I've seen it is two weeks, so usually like a week to two weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the max we've seen is like 10 days, that kind of two week, two week setting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and usually by then you know the child has stabilized, you've been able to work on some things between home and the child. Were there miscommunication things? Were there behaviors between both, you know, between parents and child. That needed to be addressed was something that the parent was doing, triggering something from the past, and that was the reaction and behavior. You know there's a lot of um, there's a lot of factors that go into that, so you can, um, adjust and kind of get out of that cycle and the hospitalization will break the cycle and you're good to go and that's all you need. But then there are other times where that is a repeated cycle and it's happening way too frequently, way too often, way too often, and it's just that that hospitalization is no longer working. Um, our case was really unique in that we had so, from the first call, a police officer actually came into our home who was clearly not trauma informed.
Speaker 1:It's the worst we have had it. We had a police officer come in and say I will take off my belt right now and give it to your mom and I'm like what oh, we had the opposite.
Speaker 2:Oh, we had the opposite. This police officer filed a report against us to dcfs because they assumed that no child would want to end their life or hurt themselves unless they were being abused in the home.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:So while he witnessed absolutely nothing, he could not grasp that a child, that there wasn't another factor. So he reported us and we had to go through a full investigation. But what ended up happening in that investigation, which is wild to me, is that they ended up determining it was unfounded against us as parents, but they ended up determining that the child was a danger to our home. Yeah, so they forced us to residential treatment.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Which we it was very much on our radar. We were in the process. Actually, we had already applied, we were in the process of finding a place. We were in the process. Actually, we had already applied. We were in the process of finding a place. We were already there, yeah, but it sped it up and so it was very odd circumstances how that happened, yeah, and then they kind of threatened us that if we did not follow through with it then we would lose all of our kids. So, yeah, scary, very, very scary it really is. So that was very odd circumstances, but again, it was already on our radar. We were not naive to the fact that we were heading that direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we are our experience. So we did one kind of crisis thing pretty early on after adoption. We are the same. We kind of knew that this child had a lot of diagnoses. We didn't know all of them, but you know, we knew that there were a lot of diagnoses and that this was going to be not an easy road for her just long term. But we didn't see any kind of the behaviors on the front end that we saw post-adoption. Post-adoption adoption was very triggering for her Interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of her other siblings. So we adopted a sibling group of five. One of her other siblings was just the opposite, had a really hard time before adoption, and adoption settled everything for her, that kind of set things in motion, and so she went to the hospital. Probably the first time she went to the hospital was probably a week after adoption, and then we had, we had a period of time where we kind of stabilized her. Everything was fine.
Speaker 1:But then we got started on the hospital cycles pretty rapidly and what we found I think for kids that have attachment struggles specifically is sometimes that hospital provides a little bit of an attachment reprieve. Yes, so they have no accountability, they have no relationships they have. They're not vulnerable, you know, like they are when they're in close relationship with people. And so that became something that she actually was actively working towards was getting to the hospital on a regular basis, because she liked that it gave her body a little reprieve from those close relationships that her brain was saying, hey, this isn't safe, this isn't safe, you know people aren't safe.
Speaker 2:We noticed that too.
Speaker 1:And I think that's so common where they start this cycle. I always tell parents that come to me that have you know that are starting to see some of these bigger behaviors. Hold off as long as you can on hospital stays and not to say that you don't have to go that route, because sometimes you do have to go that route.
Speaker 1:It is needed, it is necessary. But if you have a child that struggles with attachment and has diagnoses around attachment, that hospital stay can actually make things worse, not better. I have seen it in kids that don't have the same level of attachment struggles. I have seen it do great things right and really give them a chance to get their medication in order and to stabilize them. But I think it's a different story sometimes for kids that have a higher level of attachment struggle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. I agree with that.
Speaker 1:Well, when you have a child that's in out-of-home placement, I think I felt so much shame in the beginning that my child couldn't be at home and we were kind of the same way.
Speaker 1:We got to a place where it was very unsafe for our other kids and it was being bumped up against that.
Speaker 1:You know, we might face some different things if anything happened in the home, because we knew there were struggles and we and so anyway, that's part of the reason we sought out longer term care the way that we did.
Speaker 1:But I think people have this idea that placing them somewhere else, either for a couple of months and in our area I don't know about you, anna, but in our area most residential facilities will keep a child three to six months at a time because that's all insurance will take care of, take care of. But I think I thought, if I place them outside of the home, then that I haven't done enough, I haven't been able to stick it out, I haven't been able to love this child enough to help them heal, right. So I want you to talk about that a little bit. But then I think the other idea is that once they're placed somewhere else, that we don't have a role to play, and I think that's very wrong too. I think we can still remain very, very active, very present in in their journey and their healing and all of their stuff as they go along.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so as the shame, oh, my goodness, the shame. Yes, it is so real and I think, well, mental health as a whole has such a stigma to it, which it shouldn't, but it does in our society. So we're already have that issue and that that we're battling. But then there's also the self too. As mothers, our job, like at the core of who we are as a mother, is to love and protect your children, and nowhere in any of the books do they say you may not be the one to do that. Yeah, right, like it's all about. They need to be with the mother and you need to nurture and love and give of yourself and all of these things. And then you realize, wait, I'm not enough, I can't do this, and that is a horrible feeling, it is absolutely horrible and I really, really struggled with that.
Speaker 2:I was just so devastated with myself, like there were layers to the grief, when my daughter left. I was devastated with myself that I wasn't capable of being the mother she needed me to be, which we'll circle back to that. But then also, she's not in the home room floor and the clothes in the laundry, and there's just so much the pictures that pop up on your phone. There's so many things that just snap you back to reality, like, oh my goodness, she's not here. The empty seat at the dinner table, it was absolutely horrific. And then you have your other children grieving her loss and they're coming to you crying I miss her. I miss her when is she coming home? And you have to say I don't know, and it's going to be a long time. And so there's so many layers to the guilt. You feel guilty that you're putting this harm on your children and that you can't function and you're sad and you weren't enough. And so that was a huge process for me.
Speaker 2:And I will say this, and I am probably going to say this about 10 more times while we're talking moms need to be in therapy. If you are parenting kids from hard places whether they're in residential or not, it doesn't matter If you are parenting a child from a hard place, you need to be in therapy. And this is a hill I will die on, because, as moms, we do give and we always say well, that takes away resources from the family. It takes time. I don't have time. The reality is you have an hour. You have an hour a week. You can find an hour you can, you can figure out somewhere in the budget to get that copay or whatever. And because it is so important and it has allowed me to have the capacity to be a good mother and to be the mother that my other children need. It is not taking away, it is adding to my family. Yeah, that's just another side note.
Speaker 1:Well, I do want to say, though, while you're talking about that, though, it is very, very important that your therapist is trauma informed, so that you are getting feedback that understands the complexity of what your situation is, because a therapist that doesn't understand that is going to make things worse. Shame wise for you, very true, and how they're directing you to handle things.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is very true, and I'm spoiled because I've been with my therapist for three years now and I love her and she knows every aspect of my life. But she truly walked me through the grief. She had been with me through the past several years, obviously, and building up to this, she told me that we needed to do residential, long before I considered it and I was like no, you don't understand. You don't understand, I could never do that. I'm not doing that to my child, I'm going to maintain a connection. And she really sat there and was like no, and it was after my daughter left and, processing through all this, I was actually diagnosed with PTSD from what had happened in the home and that was the biggest light bulb for me going Whoa, it was bad. Yeah, it that was. It was real, I wasn't exaggerating, I wasn't making this up and it it was very real. And so therapy is just so important because you have to be able to process these things Well and to have an outside perspective, just to go no, this is what that is.
Speaker 1:I had told my therapist I'm like I understand secondary trauma because I knew all the lingo. I knew all the things.
Speaker 2:Sure Right.
Speaker 1:This is not secondary trauma. This is primary trauma. You are being abused. This is a domestic violence situation.
Speaker 2:And in our situation.
Speaker 1:It was and it wasn't her fault. It's just. Her brain works as if she's in active combat 24-7, just because of all the abuse she experienced. All the way up Her brain wired to say people are not safe, right. And so totally defending herself constantly against threats that aren't really there, but on the receiving end of things to have somebody say this is not secondary trauma. You are not just taking on her trauma, you are actually like this is primary trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's important. We never want to say negative things about our children because we want to protect them, we want to protect their future, and saying that we are abused by our kids really does give a different people view that, differently than what we actually mean and what we're saying. However, the reality is, I think acknowledging that for myself was, and realizing this was an abusive relationship. We were mother, daughter and this was such an abusive and toxic relationship and removing us from the same space and having the opportunity to lay that foundation and rebuild is exactly what we needed. Because I'm not saying things are great now, I'm not saying we have it all figured out. It's not. It's horrible still, but it would have and I don't say this to be dramatic or negative in any way but I truly believe that if in the at that point residential hadn't happened, one or all of us would probably be dead by now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that that is that's not to be funny or dramatic. It's really true.
Speaker 1:It's real life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, and I had to step away from it to acknowledge that and realize that, because I thought I could fix it and I thought I could do it.
Speaker 1:Yep, well, we're told that, you know, I think so much. I love all the trauma training. I love, you know, the connection aspect of things and the ability for human contact to help our brains heal, I think is real right. But I think a lot of times we minimize the impact of trauma, we minimize how much it damages the brain and I don't think minimizing that when we speak helps anybody, because it is serious. Like our kids are not just resilient, they're just going to go about their day. Like people need to understand just how serious these impacts of trauma are. It is not our kids, my, my child that struggles the most, is the most compassionate the most, the most. I mean she is the sweetest person, but trauma has changed her brain, it just has. It has. And there's no way around it and we are not enough to fix it.
Speaker 1:There was a couple of years ago there was something that had a devastating incident with a child that was adopted or whatever, and somebody there was an influencer kind of in the foster care and adoption space that got up and made the statement that no child is too much, they're not too much, and every child needs to know that they're not too much, they're not too much, and every child needs to know that they're not too much. And I agree with that when you're talking about a child and a person and who they are at their core. But the reality is is sometimes the trauma is too much and when we say things, blanket statements like that to make people feel good, it doesn't help anybody, because then what I felt was a bunch of shame that I was not enough, that I was placing that on my child that I should have been enough, that on my child that I should have been enough. And the fact is is I can't be, I can't be enough all the time.
Speaker 1:I have limits to my body and what I can handle and the other people in my household have limits to what they can handle. And in their bodies and you know what she has limits as to what. We're trying to force her in these boxes without any support, right Like she has limits as to what. We're trying to force her in these boxes without any support, right Like she has limits as to what she can handle and she needed extra support and extra care that we just weren't able to give her.
Speaker 2:And I think that's interesting. Oh sorry.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say. I would love to know, like you know, just kind of your thoughts on that and how, as moms, we can kind of get over that hump of not being enough. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:I don't know that we ever fully get over it. Yeah, I mean, there's that self-doubt and there's that guilt all the time. Yeah, do I question myself Is this the right facility? Did I put her in the right place? Are we doing too much?
Speaker 2:But there was something you said actually made me think of a conversation I had with someone else who's in a similar boat and because mom meaning bio mom and dad hurt them so much that just the relationship of they don't feel safe in. Just because I am mom and my husband is dad, just because of those titles alone, they we're forcing them into this relationship that is so terrifying to them. And that was such a profound moment when we had this conversation because my husband and I looked at each other like, oh my goodness, we're sitting here in these family sessions going, but we love you, we want you home, get better, do the things, come home. And she's probably going. That's really scary. I don't want to, and for us, home is safe. Mom and dad is safe. Why wouldn't you want to be here versus a facility where you're watching fights happen and getting involved in the things, like why you know the amount of incident reports I get?
Speaker 1:You are not alone.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, it's been awful. It's been a really bad week with that, but you want to just scream at them Like we're safe. Have we not proved that to you? Like now she's been in our home longer than she ever was in her biological family's home, and so you, as a mom, you're like come on, what is wrong here? Am I, how am I not enough? How am I not giving enough? And the reality is I never can, because of that trauma, if anything. Being mom and constantly being in her face trying to prove myself is actually making it worse. And when that clicked this was just this week. So it's not like I have a ton of like, oh wow, then everything changed. But I can see how now approaching things differently may make a huge difference and I'm hopeful. I don't know, but I think that goes back to we have that guilt and we think that we're not enough. Maybe we just can't be ever because of who we are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that's so good and one of the things that I have seen with my daughter is I she actually we have built a better relationship with her not being in our home Interesting we have, because it has allowed me to pour into her without me being that threat of being that mom, right, yeah, so she could build that relationship with me and actually I mean I am the one that she will call. I mean I would say her attachment to me has grown, it has solidified. I'm the one that she calls. If she's melting down, if something's going on at the facility and she's upset and she needs to be regulated, she will call me. And so it's like that bond has grown while she's been away.
Speaker 1:But I've had to be very intentional about that right Making sure. I think it takes a lot more intentionality from me to grow that relationship while she's not physically with me every day. But I mean I think it's actually been really good for us to have a little space so that I can pour into her and build that relationship from a distance where it's a little bit safer for her in her mind, and so I know that you stay connected. I mean you're talking about therapy sessions with her and all that kind of stuff. So what are some ways? If somebody has a child in an out-of-home placement, what are some ways that they can keep being mom, what are some ways that they can stay connected and kind of build that attachment while a child's not at home?
Speaker 2:So I think, when we're talking about attachment issues, I would have told you a year ago that her and I had a very strong attachment and we were very, very close. I think now, looking back, it was not a real attachment, it was a survival attachment.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I viewed it as very real. For her, it was transactional. Having that type of relationship with me and acting like she was very close with me made it safe for her and gave her that safety. So when that all came crashing down, I was devastated. I'm like it's all been fake. She wasn't my, but the reality is that I I had to refocus. No, it was her way of surviving. In her mind she had to act like the try and be the favorite and be the good child and be, because that was how she was going to remain safe around me, and then she just couldn't keep up the facade anymore.
Speaker 2:So in a way, we're building from almost nothing and that has been very hard and I think initially and I don't know if you experienced this too for us she's been gone eight months now, so we're still I don't know that sounds like such a long time yet we're still so much in the beginning stages of that repair work and it's been really, really hard. It has not been pretty. It has been very, very ugly, um, and we don't have I, I can't say that we it's distance has been good for us. I mean, we're not down each other's throats, I guess you know like we're not. You know there is a safety, but I think that that has been really hard. I mean, there are, I would say, more phone calls than not where I'm getting called and cussed out, yeah, but then there's also those phone calls where something happened and she needs to talk to mom right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's. It's interesting. I'm like wait, you just got done cussing me out. Why now you need me? Okay, um, but I think that is all a part of that repair work and that building that foundation is okay. Just because you did that to me, I'm still available when you need me for the hard things, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's hard and I have had to set boundaries. I have, and I have had times where I'm like this was too much, I need to take a few days, and we've set those boundaries with the facility ahead of time. I'm not just ignoring her. Hey, you went too far this time. Mom's got a lot of other stuff going on too. I just I need a break. We're going to call a timeout and for 48 hours we're just going to block no phone calls and then in 48 hours, when you've had time to kind of regulate, calm down, then we can talk again. So I think setting those boundaries of I'm still here for you you don't get to treat me like that though and that's been really, really important.
Speaker 2:Also, what has been really important, too, is setting the boundary. I don't know why, but she loves to call during dinner. That's just the time that is her favorite to call, and so we kind of had to set that boundary as well, like, hey, we are going to focus, cause I was jumping up every time to answer that phone call, like, and then I'm removing myself from the table, or if it's a rough phone call, the kids are being exposed to it, and that's not fair to the ones who are still here. They need our attention, they need that dinner time as a family and everything. So we had to set that boundary of if you call between these hours we're not going to answer, we just aren't. You can call us later and we will, but we're not going to answer during these hours. Does she still call multiple times a week during those hours? Absolutely, but it alleviated that. Well, why are you ignoring my calls Now? She knows She'll still try, but she knows that we're not ignoring the calls.
Speaker 2:She knows that after well, she has a pretty strict time too that she can't call after. But you know, after certain hours, if the sorry we're not answering, if they really need to get a hold of us, it'll be, it'll come from a different line and I'll know. You know that I that I need to answer. So just really being upfront and setting those boundaries has really alleviated a lot of the anxiety around her end of maintaining that connection and I didn't really realize that at first, how much that, how much anxiety she has because I mean, get it, she's 13, she's getting dropped off.
Speaker 2:I was there for an hour to sign some paperwork and then I left. Yeah, and so I'm that's. That's traumatic for a 13 year old yeah, very traumatic, especially for any 13 year old, let alone having the history that she had. So having those clear expectations and those boundaries, while it's helping us and protecting our sanity and our time with the family at home, it's also easing her anxiety, too. Around it she knows when she can call, when we will answer, when we're going to be available, and I think that's really important to set those very clear boundaries.
Speaker 1:I've seen that too. I have some weekends where I do training for the whole weekend and I let her know ahead of time hey, I'm training this weekend, so I'm not going to be available, and it keeps her mind from going to a place.
Speaker 1:now she still may call right um like you said, but but it keeps her mind from going to a place of they don't want to answer, like it sets that boundary. That it's not about that. It's that I'm because I think in our case my daughter quickly goes to they don't want to answer, they're rejecting me and and so letting her know up front. This is not what that is right Like. I just have times where I'm not available. It doesn't mean that you're not important, that I'm not going to answer your call, that I'm not going to meet your needs, but just know that you know during this time I can't be available.
Speaker 1:I agree that that has probably eased some of her anxiety. On our side, I love those boundaries that you're setting within the structure of your relationship, that you're saying, hey, these are my boundaries, I'm not going to be treated in a way that is unsafe for me. And I think it's important for parents to know that you don't have to accept dangerous behavior. You can set boundaries that make it safe for you as well. I think I didn't know that early on.
Speaker 2:No, I didn't either.
Speaker 1:I would literally just sit there and take the abuse like physical abuse and just be like this is what I'm supposed to do, like this is what it looks like to be here, no matter what, and I think you know that is not always a good thing. Well, I think I know that some residential facilities have different policies, have different you know, and we have to adhere to whatever their stuff is. I know in our case we have been very grateful to be able to, like I can bring in food, I can even. We're at a point in our journey we are a little further along on our journey than you are and I think in the beginning that it was a lot harder, that distance was a lot harder, but we are like seven years in to doing the hospitals and residentials.
Speaker 1:I mean we're on like hospitalization, I don't know number 40, 50. I stopped counting at some point. And so you know we have been doing this for a very long time and I think in the beginning it was more like what you're explaining. I think now we're in a pattern where their relationship is actually growing and getting better, but we also have some flexibility where she is now, because we are further along in the process and we have a good relationship. The facility that she's in now is like it's like her fourth time there and so they know us, we know the situation and, like I took her to the movies, she wanted to go see the new Mufasa movie. We went and, you know, hung out at the movies and I think some of those things have been very beneficial as well, because we do get to have, even in the midst of her being placed somewhere else, we do get to have some normal, more normal mother-daughter moments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, very much looking forward to that. It's hard. So the facility that we're at right now, it has a phase system, okay, so you have to. It's most restricted in phase one. Then you kind of graduate and the restrictions become less. We're still in phase one yeah after eight months.
Speaker 2:So she's not able it's not, I mean she can't, she has to prove that she can be safe to leave the facility. Sure, and we're not there yet. So those are times that I and I kind of try and dangle the carrot, like we can do these things if you just do the work. And we're just not there yet. So I'm very excited.
Speaker 1:A lot of times, like those carrots can actually be, like our kids can sabotage themselves because they have in their mind that they're not ever going to get there, you know, and so it just creates a very odd dynamic, but I'll give you hope those stages do.
Speaker 1:They do come to where you know you're able to have more flexibility, or whatever, to where you know you're able to have more flexibility, or whatever. Well, one other thing that I want to ask is how has having a child placed outside of the home impacted the other kids in the home? Um, and your family, your husband, your family unit? The way the family works right, like I it, it changes when a child is, is not there full time. So, um, how have you seen that impact the other kids in your home?
Speaker 2:It impact them tremendously. So we have a very large age gap, um, between our two sets of siblings. There is a seven year age gap gap there and the little ones adored their older sisters like they adore, adored, as if they don't still. They absolutely still adore them, um, so that has been really difficult and I think they were young enough when my oldest was gone and she was only gone for three months, so they it didn't impact them in the same way. Now, um, my youngest daughter and the one who's in residential now shared a room. So they, that was very, very hard, many tears. I can't sleep without her here. Where is she? When is she coming back? I mean, they were so bonded and really had just such a sweet relationship, even though there was this huge age gap. It was just the sweetest relationship between the two of them. So that was very, very devastating and over time it's she's just kind of accepted it and she doesn't really ask about her a whole lot, doesn't, which is also odd. I don't know. I don't know. She's only six. You know, she's processing things in her own way.
Speaker 2:Now, my little guy, he was, oh no, it all happened on his fourth birthday, um, the whole thing started on his birthday. Um, so he was just four when she left and that was very, very difficult for him. He still, I mean, middle of the night we'll get up and cry. I just want her home. When is she coming home? Very, very hard on him. His preschool teacher said he prays for her every day during his snack time prayer. So that's hard to hear.
Speaker 2:And then obviously, my oldest, that's her biological sister and she's gone and there's so many layers to it. One she went through residential too and was like I did it, I got out and moved on. What's your problem, right? So there's that aspect of two wildly different reasons for going, wildly different personalities to begin with, like those two could not be anywhere different even though they're sisters. So I think there's so many emotions in our home. My husband is. He deals with it in very different ways. He's absolutely devastated by it. I think his comes out in a little bit more in anger. You know why? Why weren't we enough and why can't you come? Why can't you just do what you? You haven't laid out? You have the roadmap, do it and come home.
Speaker 2:Um, so we all have dealt with it in different ways, where for me it's been more that emotional, the like we talk about the, the struggles of why wasn't I enough, and then just not having all of my children here has been very hard. I'm used to doing things for four kids and now I have three. I don't have to consider, and it feels wrong to not consider the one, but I don't have to, so that has been really, really challenging. One thing that has been huge for us well, really, two things one, and they go together, but one is really surrounding ourselves with people who understand trauma and the effects of trauma, not only for the sake of understanding what happened with our daughter, but also understanding that this is very traumatic for our kids too, on top of their other trauma. So we got another layer and you think there should be no more trauma.
Speaker 2:In the adoptive home Well sorry, there's a whole lot right now. So it's been really hard and we really have to surround ourselves. And in the adaptive home Well sorry, we just there's a whole lot right now, so it's it's been really hard and we really have to surround ourselves. And, in the same aspect, we have to distance ourselves from people who don't understand it or who are very judgmental or are painting an alternate narrative of what's happening and we just had to distance ourselves because I'm sorry it's one of the things that's me right but truly, your words are so hurtful and we're already so raw that we can't, we just can't, and that's just been a boundary that we've had just that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that's great to give parents permission, you know, really in in that space to do both things to bring some people close and to let them see, you know the the raw of what's going on. You know, making sure that that that group is very safe, um, but also to distance yourself from some other influences that may not be speaking life into your, into your family, um, okay, so I have a question that I didn't tell you about beforehand, but just as we're talking, I I would love to know, like, if you could change one thing about the mental health system I have to choose just one.
Speaker 1:Wait a minute.
Speaker 2:We could do a whole series on that. Amen, amen.
Speaker 1:But if you could change one thing, like, what would be the biggest thing that you would change? But if you?
Speaker 2:could change one thing like what would be the biggest thing that you would change? I think honestly, truly, that all therapists, anyone who comes into contact, nurses, doctors, even social workers, police officers, any paramedics, anybody who is going to come in contact with someone who has mental health struggles, whatever they are, they have to be trauma informed, they have to understand the effects of trauma, because you would think that that's common sense and that they all are and they all would understand it, but it's actually really rare for somebody to understand it, and that is such a disservice to not only the patients but the families and their caregivers too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree, and I was very surprised about that. About.
Speaker 2:I was too, I was too.
Speaker 1:There is no trauma awareness in those circles.
Speaker 2:I was too, I was too like in crisis stabilization.
Speaker 1:Like how do things go together.
Speaker 1:How is this helpful? How is this helpful, right, and I know that that's a very little piece of the puzzle, but I think it. It goes to hey, we're not really thinking through these things, like, right, we're just kind of going through the motions, we're not really being trauma informed, we're not thinking through about what's best for these kids and how to set them up for success, how to help them heal, but we're just kind of going through the motions and all of it. Yeah Well, anna, as we wrap up, what do you, what would you say, has like, helped you get through all of this turmoil and chaos? Right, because this is hard, this is hard stuff, this is real hard stuff. So, what do you lean on? What do you look to?
Speaker 2:I mean, honestly, my faith in God. That is the only thing that has gotten us through this. I truly don't know how anybody could face the things that we've had to face without him there and I think, having to fully trust that he has a plan in all of this, when it makes zero sense from my perspective, like um hello, this makes zero sense. And he does have a plan, though, and I don't understand it and I don't see it at all. I can't even remotely comprehend it. But there is a plan and I think one of the biggest things too that I've lately really struggled with and I was actually just telling a friend this last night lately really struggled with, and I was actually just telling a friend this last night I can say that I trust him and and I truly do, I trust him.
Speaker 2:I trust that he is carrying. I mean, he is carrying us through this. There's no way. It's not just I trust that he will. He is but I think sometimes I'm losing that hope that he will heal her and that we will see the other side of this, and that is something I am really struggling with and really trying to grasp onto. Is that hope the hope that I and some people may think that they're the same, but I can trust that he's good, while also being like I'm losing hope that you're going to actually fix this and I'm going to see it in my lifetime, and so that has been. I mean, I'm not going to say that, oh, my walk of faith has been great and wonderful and everything's perfect. But without that and without God carrying our family through this, I truly don't know where we would be. That has been everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I do think sometimes that wrestling is good right, like sometimes those moments, because those places in our heart of unbelief are there. You know, I feel like I live in the constant posture of I believe, lord, help my unbelief, because I do, I do trust, I do believe. But there are still those areas, that kind of pinprick, you know, do you really in this, like you know this too, so I love that you put that out there. Well, anna, I really appreciated this conversation today and I think it's going to be so helpful for so many parents to not feel alone, because I think a lot of times when we're facing more escalated stuff, more elevated behaviors, I think we can even beyond regular foster care and adoption aloneness like we.
Speaker 1:It goes a step further that sometimes we feel segregated even within the adoption and foster care community 100% 100%.
Speaker 1:So I appreciate you being here today. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you for having me. If you know somebody that is facing similar challenges, would you send them this episode? I really desire for foster and adoptive parents to know that they are not alone, that there are lots of people that are facing similar challenges. Let me pray for us as we wrap up today.
Speaker 1:Lord God, thank you so much that we can come together and talk about these hard and difficult things. Lord, thank you that we can speak with grace and receive things with grace. Help us walk in discernment. Lord, these challenges in our home are hard. Help us to know that we were never meant to be enough. We were meant to be dependent on you. Lord, give parents grace today. Give them grace today. Help them cast away all the guilt, all the shame, and just walk in grace. Lord, you are good. Comfort us in these challenging moments. Be our strength. Give us discernment how to walk these paths in obedience to you and in honor and love to our kids. Lord, we are so thankful that we don't have to walk this path alone. We love you. We trust you In Jesus' name, amen.